What does it take to lead a meditation company without finding a moment’s peace? David Ko spent years as CEO of Calm, one of the world’s most recognized mental health and wellness apps, helping millions manage stress. Now he’s stepping down. Ko unpacks why he made the call, what the relentless pressure of the C-suite really does to a person, and how to draw the line between the kind of stress that sharpens you and the kind that quietly breaks you down.
This is an abridged transcript of an interview from Rapid Response, hosted by the former editor-in-chief of Fast Company Bob Safian. From the team behind the Masters of Scale podcast, Rapid Response features candid conversations with today’s top business leaders navigating real-time challenges. Subscribe to Rapid Response wherever you get your podcasts to ensure you never miss an episode.
So you’ve just announced you’ve stepped down as CEO. You’re becoming a senior adviser to the board. I have to say, I was surprised by this turn of events. How did this come about?
I’m glad we’re starting with this.
Going right at the elephant in the room.
Bob, thank you for the question. I made the decision to leave because, as I took a step back, I saw that Calm is a brand today that, for those who don’t know, has had more than 180 million downloads of the product and is growing in more than 190 countries and seven different languages. We’ve really made strides in health outcomes. That’s where we’re going with Calm Health.
But at the same time, what’s become abundantly clear to me is that we’re in the midst of something so much bigger. It’s bigger because what we’re finding is that everything is much more interconnected than it was before. What I mean by that is there’s a reliance on employers, payers, providers, apps like ourselves, other apps being developed at lightning speed with AI, and real policy at both the federal and state level. So it’s really not just about one individual or one company. It’s more about how you create a movement.
For me, it felt like the right time to take a step back, zoom out, and really see if I could impact things at a larger scale. I don’t have all the answers on how I’m going to do it, because you’re catching me literally right after the announcement. But on a personal note, I feel more interconnected to Calm and Calm’s mission than ever before. I just wanted to try to do it at a scale that I think can really move this forward on a global basis.
Calm’s business, as well as your book and your podcast, Recharge, focus a lot on managing stress. I’m curious how your stress is with this change, or in the Ko vernacular, how’s your battery?
I’ve got to tell you, my battery today is great because, when I think about my own battery like my phone battery, I would tell you I feel fully charged. And I’m not just saying that.
I got a good night’s sleep last night. For me, the day always starts well when it’s not about the quantity of sleep. I don’t know if it’s the same for you, Bob, but it’s really about the quality of sleep I got. I’ve really focused on that. For me, it’s been nonnegotiable.
And this change isn’t weighing on your head?
It weighs on me. Like everything else, anytime you go through change, especially a life change, it’s going to weigh on you. But I just felt it was the right time, and I’m really looking forward to trying to do something that’s more focused on the mission and outcomes.
During your tenure, Calm has grown its footprint, as you say, to 180 million app downloads and millions of Americans reached through health insurers. You’ve partnered on botanical beverages and sleep earbuds, and you helped pioneer so-called “calmtainment,” bringing celebrity voices into the app, right? Matthew McConaughey.
That’s right.
LeBron James, Harry Styles. Are there things about your time at Calm that you’re particularly proud of, that you look back on most strongly?
Absolutely. A couple of things: I think the conversation around mental health is the most approachable it’s ever been. Not in all countries, Bob, as we know, but here in the U.S., it’s probably the most approachable it’s ever been because people, like you just mentioned, are willing to talk about it.
I’m also very proud when I take a step back. I have two daughters, and they both use the app of their own accord. For someone who’s been in technology for so long, we don’t always have that opportunity where our kids, family, or friends get to use the things that we build. And I love the fact that they get to use it.
For myself, the brand was there before I got here, and I just helped continue to steward and shepherd that brand. We’ve really focused on the outcomes perspective, now covering almost 48 million lives across multiple payer partners that we didn’t have four years ago. I wanted to prove that it could actually resonate in health care, and we’re well on our way there.
A lot of our listeners are business leaders, and sometimes I feel like they don’t always take mental health and wellness seriously. There’s this phrase, wellness-washing.
Absolutely.
I’m curious how much you see that, how much that’s going on, and whether maybe it doesn’t matter. It can be wellness-washing as long as it’s progress.
I’ll give you a report we did just last year, and it really starts at the top for so many of us. We can have great HR teams, but if it’s not embraced at the leadership level, things can get muted or become just another benefit. So we went out and spoke to more than 250 C-suite executives.
What was really fascinating is that CEOs need this. They need the details and the numbers. We went out there and asked them, “How are you doing?” More than 80% of them said, “I’m good. We’re good.” When you ask that question again, because as you know, you have to ask C-suite executives the same question twice, they said, “Actually, I’m pretty stressed out.” More than 47% of them said, “I’m pretty stressed.” When we correlated even further, 28% said, “I actually feel I’m under major stress at this very moment.” And then when we pushed them even harder, almost 50% of them said, “I’m thinking of stepping down.”
What was really interesting was that, as we pressed further, we asked them, “Are you sharing this with your employees? Do they understand how stressed you are?” Many of them said no. They didn’t feel safe yet having these conversations in a more public format.
So when you ask me how CEOs are feeling and whether they believe in mental health, many of them do. In reports and studies we’ve done, it’s clear. It’s just that right now many of them, too, are feeling the stress.
How much effort did it take for you to keep the Calm workplace calm? Just because you’re helping people with their mental state doesn’t mean your team is under any less pressure to grow and build and do.
One hundred percent, Bob. People will ask me at times, “What is it like to be the CEO of Calm? Do you meditate all day? Do you just sit there and meditate all day?” And I tell them, “Honestly, no. I am the most stressed-out CEO you will ever meet,” and it catches them by surprise.The reason I say that is because every second of every day, someone is turning to us for help. And I feel that pressure, that wherever they are in the world or whatever moment they’re in, they’re asking us for help, whether it’s 30 seconds, five seconds, or 10 minutes. They’re looking to us for some type of help in the moment. It could be prevention or intervention. So I feel that pressure.
When you ask about a company that’s small and punches above its weight, we feel that pressure. I feel that pressure. I know my employees feel it. But I do try to practice what I preach. And the biggest thing I do is try to be very vulnerable in front of them. I don’t view vulnerability as a weakness. So I tell them when I’m feeling stressed. I tell them when things aren’t going well. I’m super transparent, and I wasn’t always that way because I used to view it as a weakness. Today, I view it as a strength.
